HotForWords
Key Master
I thought it would be fun to start this conversation here.
Is it really bad to make money from your craft? Does that make you a sellout? Even it means tweaking something to make it more marketable as I'm sure many musicians have had to do in their careers?
What do you all think?
I only bring this up as recently a bunch of YouTubers screamed sellout to other YouTubers who were paid to promote a product yet those same people are today promoting a product on YouTube 
Greatest Potential
Member
Everybody else does it, even if they don't admit to it, so why not do it too.
As long as it's entertaining and fun and helps others get in on the fun and profit.
The only ones complaining and having a hissy fit over that are the party poopers and the ones out to enslave others for their own cruel and devious means.
pedanticKarl
Member
Hey Marina, thank you for pointing out
the typical hypocrisy of a certain type of people.
In my opinion, I think the phrase "sell-out" is really
a pejorative phrase intended to inflict emotional harm and injury
instead of what the supposed definition states or infers.
In fact, this is the perfect opportunity to look at the origin of
that phrase. How did the phrase come about? (lesson request)
Was it that two brothers sold some goods and the slothful brother
who didn't sell his goods, got angry, and yelled at this successful
brother; "I am very angry with you because you sold out!"
OK, I made that up, but who knows.
The definition of "sell-out" typically refers to some kind of ethical
and moral issue where one older definition states:
"Corrupt contract that sacrifices public for private interest"
Another definition states:
"Selling out refers to the compromising of one's integrity,
morality and principles in exchange for money, success or
other personal gain."
And so, that begs the question? Whose job is it to point the fingers
at me and tell me whether I am moral or point the fingers at someone
else and tell them that they are compromising their integrity?
Perhaps, the original definition in a political context is a good one.
After all, it is our duty to challenge politicians when the public
trust has been broken, but beyond that, I think that phrase has taken
on the pejorative meaning like many other words and phrases. (e.g. bitch)
OK, Marina, I hope I don't open up any wounds here, but do you remember when you entered that contest for the sun care products (Ouch!!! I think she just kicked me.) After that video came out, in the first 15 minutes almost everyone's comment was made in anger telling you that you were selling out. Too bad those people couldn't read a video description as you had to tell them over and over again that it was a video made for a contest.
You know, I have the urge to turn the last 3 seconds of that video into an animated GIF with the sub title of;
"I proudly Sold Out, (my book that is).
So there!!!, neener, neener, neener".
So, in summary, be true to yourself and your values and do what's right
and not what someone else says is right. I think you are a million times
smarter than the average bear, so keep on truckin' and don't look back.
P.S.
I have this book in my library:
"Even Mystics Have Bills to Pay: Balancing a Spiritual Life and Earthly Living"
inferring that even successful and sexy intelligent teachers need to pay bills.
- - -
fromvikingstock
Member
Marina,
It's important to remember who you are and not to wander from your true self. Jimi Hendrix was a musician whom many of us loved but he wandered from his true self when he neglected his musical side. His lure was drugs. He got involved in heroine, French women, radical politics, and then we lost him.
For many people, the lure is money. It tempts them to wander from their passion and into crass materialism. Short hand for this is "selling out". To call someone a sellout is to say this:
You hurt me by abandoning your passion -- it's the thing I love most about you. You're throwing it away for brain soda money. Please remember that you are first and foremost a teacher. Education is your passion. Take the soda money if you have to, but don't wander too far from your students. Lures can lead to the death of your true self. We miss Jimi Hendrix.
-- FVS --
learningenglish
Member
youtube comments will hardly give your life any direction or fulfilment as many of them are barely intelligible and are no more than text-pollution or twitter-litter falling off-topic.
making money from enterprise and ability is something most people would like to do. however:
1 do you lose sight of the thing you once loved. the thing that excited you, even when you were excited. the thing that woke you up early. the thing that cast your dreams.
2 do you transfer your efforts to profit rather than the value of your ideas.
3 do you spend the money foolishly, or support others, be good, be kind, be generous, and help out.
4 do you forget, then alienate, the customers/students who once supported you.
5 do you sustain a recognisable integrity.
marina, your students have a diverse range of affections for you. you appear to be open, honest, and real - unlike the squeaking artificial tedious hotforprofits.
no one really expects you to reveal who you're dating, or whether you believe in an attentive caring alien keeper or a careless capricious wood-nymph, or whether you had a mis-carriage, or whether you went on an anti-war march.
people like you because you've let them see you. in some ways, they see more of you than they (choose to?) see in their partners. they see your shoes, your dog, your pillows, your phone, your hair ribbons, your sofa ... and, although you've chosen to project 'sexy', for many you could do it all in a knitted winter cardigan.
so, a sell out would be to promote ideas and products you simply don't connect with - although sponsored adverts don't give you complete control - but everyone knows this?
i hope you make enough money to care for yourself and others, support poorly-funded enterprises, and encourage others to make a path.
your teaching is memorable, in the same way that any good school teacher provides a contextual framework rather than isolated free-floating facts.
if most people write a list of ten things they really want to do in life, 'go to work' will probably not make the list. i hope it does for you.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;
as i'm a fairly new member, where do i change the picture by my name?
beevee14
Member
I think a member of Metallica said it best when they were accused of 'selling out'.
"Yes, we do. Every arena, every night."
Do what makes you happy. If you make money, that is a bonus.
Greatest Potential
Member
a classic example of selling out(?)
click on pic to find out how it all went down w/sims2 recreation animation
bsomebody
Member
Hmmm... I often have this same thought about myself, and I am still wrestling with it. If I sacrifice my integrity or lessen the quality of my craft in order to receive monetary compensation, is that selling out or just good business? Is this a black and white issue, or is it full of gray? Consumer Reports magazine does not advertise for this very reason.
As far as HotForWords is concerned, I guess the questions would be, how important is etymology to you, and are the sacrifices substantial enough that Marina feels she is "cheating." I remember some of the earlier vids, and that rebellious spirit was one the main draws for me. Then again, I do have quirky tastes, so catering to me is most likely NOT sound financial advice...
Hell, man! I don't know 
äläx
Member
... what once seemed black and white / turns to so many shades of gray / we lose ourselves in work to do / work to do and bills to pay ...
freebird
Member
If you are starving or have some expenses to cover (a diamond sequined bikini), selling out is practical.
Che Rambler
Member
There is a fine line between earning a living and exploiting a living. Unfortunately it is the viewers who determined when that line is crossed. Marina you have no control over the way people judge you.
Follow your instincts.
Che
XPOXPO
Greatest Potential
Member
Once again you've all failed in understanding what this post is really about.
Greatest Potential
Member
Here, it won't take long, I will even spell it out for you 
M as in MARINA
O as in total OBEDIENCE
N as in do it NOW!
E as in EVERYTHING done right away
Y as in no questions asked YES
See, life isn't so complicated after all.
bsomebody
Member
@Che is it the viewers who decide, or does Marina decide when her gut nags at her. Is the Lady asking us because of what others are saying, or is she questioning herself. I have learned that when I question my motives, I usually have questionable motives. If, as it seems Che is alluding, that the questions are coming from the outside, then I would counsel the Lady to examine her own motivation and decide how she feels about the issue. Each of us are different; the issue is between the Father and the Lady.
James ( in the U.K. )
Member
Well, phew, that was an interesting question from Marina, both as regards the nature of the question itself, and also in the fact that the question was posed at all, ( and personally, I feel that her posing of the question, speaks to her credit ).
I think that the person who has so far come closest to putting his finger on the heart of the matter, is pedanticKarl, in the third message, when he quotes the definition below,
"Selling out refers to the compromising of one's integrity,
morality and principles in exchange for money, success or
other personal gain."
Does merely exchanging or offering ones, talents, skills, or abilities, in exchange for financial reward, make one a sellout.?
I don't think so, and if it did, then everyone who gets paid to do any job, could be said to be, selling out.
In the public arena, that would include every artist, actor, or musician who has ever lived, and would we be more content if people such as Leonardo Da Vinci had never received payment from wealthy sponsors, and had consequently never produced his many great works of art.?
In the case of any kind of media celebrity, I don't believe that the issue should be whether or not they receive financial reward for their talents.
Instead, I believe that it has more to do with whether or not the person concerned, is or isn't, merely cynically taking advantage of their fans, and is using their talent, and or, popularity to financially gouge and exploit their fans.
For example, in the case of Marina, she has a calendar on offer for sale at the price of $14.95, subsequently reduced to $7.49, that seems fairly reasonable to me, quite inexpensive in fact, she could probably have asked a lot more, and many people would probably have paid a higher price.
She commands a degree of celebrity and popularity remember, but she didn't abuse that or demonstrate greed, shops would charge as much or more for an ordinary calendar, it's there if you want to buy it, it's there if you don't, if she had been demanding a price of $100, that would have been a different matter.
The main source of her popularity, her Youtube vids, 466 of them to date !, a vast investment of time and effort, are still available to view, free and gratis to everyone, she hasn't sought to financially exploit her fans by making money from her vids by moving them to a fee charging website of her own, so I would say that could be taken as an example of not selling out.
She probably also makes money from her media appearances and other activities, does that make her a sell out, I don't think so, we aren't being asked to fund her career, and we can still freely view her Youtube content, so how could providing herself with a career and an income based on the popularity of her vids be deemed to be selling out.?
Contrast that with some celebs, sportsmen, baseball players and soccer players for example, often multi millionaires, who nevertheless exploit their skills to demand ever higher wages, and the fans end up being financially exploited to pay their inflated and greedy wage demands, I would say that qualifies as an example of selling out.
Similarly with advertising endorsements, and fees for personal appearances.
Many people place an inordinate amount of trust in celebrities, nothing wrong, I think, with a celebrity utilising that trust financially by being paid for advertising if the celebrity genuinely believes that the product is worthy, but if they cynically ignore the interests of their fans, and are merely motivated by unprincipled greed, and are willing to endorse trash in exchange for payment, then that is also an example of selling out.
Personal appearance fees ?, again, it depends on the circumstances, everyone expects to be paid for the use of their time and effort, and if a celebrity is asked to open a business, or give a speech, other than in a charitable situation, a fee seems reasonable, and people who ask celebs to do such work can afford to pay for their services.
However, contrast that with the situation of celebrities who are happy to make money off their fans, but who otherwise regard and treat, even their most loyal and well meaning fans with arrogance and disdain, and who never give the slightest personal feedback to their fans, such as for example, turning up at premieres and not even giving the fans a wave or a nod, I would say that's a sell out.
Tom Cruise on the other hand, will spend an hour chatting to fans and shaking hands with them outside premieres, does he need to ?, probably not, would he be any less popular if he didn't do that ?, probably not, but at least it shows that he is aware of why he is a celebrity, and that he understands that he enjoys such status because of the endorsement of his fans, and he is showing them a degree of respect by his actions.
Ironically, and rather peculiarly, he has sometimes been accused of cynical self promotion for doing that.
Sometimes, whatever you do, you just can't win, and there will always be some people ready to point the finger, and scream, "foul".
I have just signed up here, and I hadn't viewed this site previously, but I was astonished at how much interaction and feedback Marina has here with her fans, and she doesn't just post brief one line messages, I would say that in her case, that tends to contradict any suggestion of selling out, which might be made against Marina,.....I'm sure there must have been such allegations made somewhere, sometime, or if not, they probably will be made, sooner or later.
I only signed up here in order to request a word lesson, ironically perhaps, the word was,......flattery, and it's often misused, and it's exact meaning is frequently misunderstood, and btw, nothing I have said here should be taken as being intended to be flattery.
I don't think that it's the fact that a celebrity makes money from their talents that is the criteria by which they should be judged as being, or not being, a sellout.
After all, much of the material that such people produce and offer to the world for people's enjoyment, would not, or could not, be produced if these people were not able to pursue their creative activities as a full time career, could you pay your bills, or fund your own activities without the benefit of an income.?
I believe that the criteria by which people can be judged to be a sellout or not, lie more in the application of those words contained in the definition of sell out,.....compromise, integrity, morality, principles, and also, greed, cynicism, contempt and exploitation.
I believe that it's not so much a matter of what is done, but more a matter of how and why it is done.
I have referred here several times to Marina, that was intended to be by way of illustrative and comparative example, but I do of course understand that her question was of a more general nature, and wasn't specifically intended to refer to herself, but I believe that my comments can be taken as referring to her question in it's more general sense.
Anyway, these are just my own personal views, and I'm not trying to force them down anyone elses throat, nor am I trying to lay down the law to anyone,.....must go and request my word lesson now.
Regards to everyone, dasvidanya and spashibo bolshoi.
James.
PS - BTW Folks, in case you are wondering who the guy in the avatar pic is, ( which I'm sure that you weren't ),.....just ask Marina, I'm sure she can tell you, and no, it's not her dad, although in an indirect way, perhaps it is in a sense.!
Zephyr
Member
I don't think that it's a bad thing to earn an honest amount of money for something you do well! Kudos to James for the Gigantic comment!
~*Zephyr*~
James ( in the U.K. )
Member
Thankyou Zephyr, be fair though, I wasn't the only one!, perhaps you should ask Marina to define, verbosity.
audadvnc
Member
The Internet is a great place for networking and meeting new friends, but it's very difficult to make any money here - everybody expects content for free. How can the content providers (i.e. HFW) cover their own costs? Fans are nice, but - how many people are gonna buy Marina's book when they've got all the words on this site already?
James is way ahead of me on this issue.
James
Member
Well, as long as you don't start doing that..
Greatest Potential
Member
Sure, it's easy to say "he" sold out or "she" did when you don't see all those executive names and ceos listed on a corporate logo on some huge banner flag waving in the air at some stadium that used to be named after a kid's pony or whatever then got name changed into some chemical company that makes scotch tape.
jut
Member
Dear Marina,
I encountered your channel today just out of chance and thought your idea of "sexing up" a subject traditionally seen as dull and increasingly being left behind in today’s schools was fairly clever and cute. This led me to your website and this thread.
Marina, I wouldn't say that it is unfair to make money from your work, especially when you're providing a free service to everyone who's watching your videos; but I really think you may want to take a deep breath and think about the kind of adverts and products you are associating yourself with as it does you no favours.
I'll start with the most striking first, on your front page I'm greeted with not one but three banner ads for a Russian bride’s website. I guess they are not there of your choosing but the result of Googlead's content delivery, but do you not understand that you are indirectly endorsing this service? and the effect this has on your credibility?
I'll move onto the pet hate of mine though Neurodrinks. You are a teacher of words; I am a teacher of science and will passionately promote my subject in and out of the classroom. To see an educated person associate themselves with a product that misuses science to the extent neuro do in order to sell their product disappoints me.
I noticed that one of the drinks contained 5-HTP, a precursor to Serotonin. This could pose a risk to anyone taking medication that effects the Serotonin pathway (i.e. SSRI's), and lead to Serotonin Syndrome.
NeuroSonic claims to be Anti-Ageing, do you know how stupid and unfounded a claim this is? The amino acids it contains are naturally provided by a normal diet and certainly will not extend telomeres and therefore lifespan.
I shall not continue my rant on the Neurodrinks as I feel my IQ dropping the longer I look at their pages. I just feel sorry that you, as an academic and celebrity chose to associate yourself with a company that stoops as low as Neurodrinks.
Please don't take my little rant the wrong way; I feel that you're providing a great service with your videos, hell I learnt something from them! I just feel it's a pity that you've chosen to associate yourself with Mail Order Russian Brides and Pseudoscience instead of something a little more worthwhile such as a bookstore or online courses.
If you're ever in doubt about the scientific claims of a product you're being asked to sponsor then get in touch with these guys and they will set you straight.
http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/13
muggins
Member
The phrase, "selling out" can be used where it does not apply. The phrase has to be put into context and degree. It could be applied to life or death situations, like when Judas, Benedict Arnold, or Quisling sold out. There is no doubt about selling out in those cases, where the consequences were serious. Then there are the politicians, who take money in smoke filled backrooms and become corrupt. Again, serious business. And it's serious when an artist of high talent entirely abandons his potential to make money doing commercially viable stuff. But, to call a craftsman a sellout signals that the accuser is immature and pretentious, at best.
Hs4Mm
Member
Saw this topic just now! My gravatar is the dollar sign ($) and I think that making heaps and heaps of money is a good thing! BUT the tricky part in your question is:
Even it means tweaking something to make it more marketable a ...
The preceding is loaded! (The questions I pose in the following are NOT for the purpose of getting you to tell us your answers. Their sole purpose is to get you to think and answer them PRIVATELY for your own self. This is not an issue between you and anyone else -- it is between you and yourself! You have to live with yourself, always, every moment!)
What exactly does tweaking mean? Would you be as proud of your product as you would be without any such tweaks? Did the money incentive just make you think of the tweaks, and once you know of them, would you do the tweaks anyway even if there was no payment? And some tweaks might be of an optional nature, meaning, that it really doesn't matter whether they are done or not done, but the guy paying the bill wants them -- such tweaks are OK. And this is by no means an exhaustive list of questions.
As an analogy, if someone wants sex, he can masturbate, work to define what exactly he wants and seek a lover, find a hooker, or pick up some drunk. The desire of wanting to enjoy sex is good; the first two methods aid in his growth; the last two methods amount to self-destruction on his part.
Having lots of sex with one's lover is good; making tons of money doing something one enjoys and is proud of is good.
PS: Here's an example of a tweak that is obviously bad: the buyer says to make a video lesson saying that origin of testify comes from covering testicles at court; buyer thinks such a story would be titillating and so marketable; giving in to buyer to propagate false etymology would be evil.
Captain Jack
Member
Statements not only directed to Marina but also directed to anyone who wishes to add their input. I just needed a subject hold.
----
"Is it really bad to make money from your craft? Does that make you a sellout? Even it means tweaking something to make it more marketable as I'm sure many musicians have had to do in their careers?"
It's how you present your product. If you do a poor job of convincing your audience of your sincerity of the product you're promoting,then it makes you appear as a sell out.
Musicians are best at making music. They are not experts at marketing and should not be expected to be so. It annoys me to no end of amateurs trying to jump into marketing with little or no education what so ever. You don't see Musicians attempting to pilot a 747 jet without getting lessons right? The same applies to marketing. There is 3 time more science in marketing than flying jets.
"I only bring this up as recently a bunch of YouTubers screamed sellout to other YouTubers who were paid to promote a product yet those same people are today promoting a product on YouTube
So why would they think that way? Lets turn it on its head. Do they know they are promoting a product? Do they see them selfs as a sell out? If not then why?
darlingj
Member
My 2 cents...
I concur with much of the wisdom expressed above.
I think PK provided the proper definition - it boils down to Integrity. Wholeness. it has very little to do with getting paid, because we all need that.
Krusty the Clown on the Simpsons 'sold out' to too many sponsors and endorsements - and where is he now? Heart Bypass - accused of robbery - rehab - estrangement from his family - a lesson we all could learn.
Does an endorsement enhance BOTH Brands? Brand protection becomes key, as that is the main value to keep intact.
If one is primarily an EDUCATOR promoting SEX = not good in today's world.
A Sexy Educator seems to be a proven winning formula as shown by Vast Popularity and recent Sponsorships.
The YT folks yelling 'sell out' probably have not much to sell.
I'll be the first to scream if I see Marina on a box of Condoms - or some sugary cereal. Don't doubt me.
Marina has created a unique and valuable Brand for herself - and I think it is and will be more valuable the less that it is used at this point.
The Sponsors chosen I think are perfect right now - book coming out - fame increasing - many, many years to come...HFW is like Gold - hold on to all you can at this point. Geeze - what will next year look like after GoDaddy exposure and book sales? Yikes!
But I might be full of S**t too. What an exciting life!
Captain Jack
Member
Darlingj,
"Krusty the Clown on the Simpsons 'sold out' to too many sponsors and endorsements - and where is he now? Heart Bypass - accused of robbery - rehab - estrangement from his family - a lesson we all could learn."
That's a good example! LOL Come to think of it, there are many examples of people who sell out tend to loose their credibility. Which I think it's a very important quality one should defend with their life. If you lose your credibility, your brand is dead and it may never recover.
I like Jut's responce:
"I'll start with the most striking first, on your front page I'm greeted with not one but three banner ads for a Russian bride’s website. I guess they are not there of your choosing but the result of Googlead's content delivery, but do you not understand that you are indirectly endorsing this service? and the effect this has on your credibility?"
I know she has little control to some point over this but I would have to agree with Jut about these little indirect or direct endorsements have a profound visual effect on HFW brand credibility.
--
I have a question to pose. Can anyone name some people/brands that that have lost their credibility from selling out to the wrong products and services?
Second question. What if your BEST friend own a product like Neurodrinks for example, would you help them promote it?
Captain Jack
Member
Since we are on this discussion I want to post the definition of the word 'Sell Out'
Verb
1.
a. to dispose of (something) completely by selling
b. (of items for sale) to be bought up completely: these tickets will sell out in minutes
2. to abandon one's pricinciples, standards, etc.
3. to betray in order to gain an advantage or benefit
Anyone have comments about #2 or #3 in how this affects the individual or in how the public views the individual?
darlingj
Member
Jack,
I'd protect my Brand and help anyone I could along the way.
Obviously, #2 & #3 are harmful as we both know from experience.
I'm not making any current judgements as I have nothing to base them on.
Hs4Mm
Member
A) Regarding ads:
A.1) I think today people know that appearance of an ad on a radio show or on a web-site does not automatically mean the host of the show/web-site personally endorses the product.
A.2) I would never recommend a product to someone (let alone endorse it as an ad) unless I have been using that product for a very long time.
A.3) If I just started using a product and found it to be promising (such as the company that registers my domain and hosts my site) I would find it OK to suggest it privately with all the caveats regarding what preliminary facts/experience I would be basing the suggestion on and any gotchas to look out for.
A.4) Regarding Captain Jack's specific question about a best friend owning a product like Neuro: since I think that product is based on false science, I would never consume it or personally recommend it. Giving them ad space would be OK as per (1) above.
Hs4Mm
Member
B) Regarding Captain Jack's: Anyone have comments about #2 {to abandon one's pricinciples, standards, etc.} or #3 {to betray in order to gain an advantage or benefit} in how this affects the individual or in how the public views the individual?
B.1) I think that in thinking and acting, one must not consider "how the public will view one" - as demonstrated by Galileo.
B.2) Examples of 3: Dr. Dean Edell gets frequent proposals for endorsing quack medicine that he refuses -- if he were to endorse such products he would be destroying his top value, the science of medicine.
B.3) Example of 2: Some time this year, Paris Hilton said in an interview that she is not really the bimbo she projects to the public and that in the future she would be her own serious, intelligent self. So she has lived her life by betraying her self (committing treason to her self) out of fear of the public or out of wanting to be "accepted by the public" and thinking that what the public will accept is mindlessness and that the pubic will reject an intelligent woman.
B.4) Ayn Rand's novel The Fountainhead is about integrity to one's values; there is a movie version too. The story dramatizes how lack of integrity leads to self-destruction and how integrity leads to success. As an example from the beginning part of that story, an architect comes up with a plan for a Bank building. The board of directors suggest some tweaks to the design, but those tweaks go against the principles under which the architect does his design -- he refuses, does not get the job, has to close his office and work as a stone cutter in a quarry. The story puts all sorts of obstacles/temptations in front of the hero and shows how he maintains his integrity in all these circumstances.
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