this is where i am going with this topic. what does a word or phrase convey about a society or individual? how does language influence perceptions? how is language used to transmit culture? what beliefs and customs influence one's understanding of language and words? have cultures used language to order and maintain ethnic or national identity? what are the forces that change or conserve language? what are some of your questions?
HotForWords Forums » Philology and Etymology
language and culture
(118 posts)-
buzzword
MemberPosted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Memberu.s. president elect obama is frequently referred to as the first u.s. president that is african american. however he is bi-racial, his other ethnic background being caucasian. yet his ethnicity is defined as african american. does u.s. society consider an individual african american if there is any african american ethnicity in their background? is this true of caucasians? what does the manner in which u.s. culture define ethnicity reveal about historical attitudes toward ethnicity and identity? does this definition change for other ethnicities, other u.s. historical periods? if an individual is both asian and african american how does u.s. society define them, why? how does the language of ethnicity shape human relationships and self identity?
Posted 11 months ago # -
HotForWords
Key MasterObama should be referred to as half African-American/Caucasian.. but that starts to get really confusing!
I see where you are going with them calling Obama the first African-American president, when he is in fact half African-American and half Caucasian. Why is he not referred to as a white or Caucasian president? Or a mixed president? calling him the first Africa-American president seems to show some racial bias there, right?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberPutting in my two cents and Indian nickle also a Pocahontas quarter. I figure the position of presidency known as the highest office in the land was more about qualifications rather than "I would like "potent potables" for a $1000 Alex"
Posted 11 months ago # -
CampKohler - Sacramento CA
MemberMarina: >Why is he not referred to as a white or Caucasian president?
Perhaps the reason is racist. For a long time, if a person's ancestry was a fraction black (no matter how small), then the person was considered black. It did not work the other way around, of course, because those making up the rules were white.
However, practically speaking, everyone understands that he is the first black president. Here is an argument: Is trying to set aside or ignore Obama's race taking away from his achievement? Will the first guy in a wheelchair to climb Mt. Everest have all mention of his handicap edited out in order to be PC, thus destroying his place in history?
Maybe everyone should stop trying to be PC today and think of how all that is said and done will look to those a hundred years in the future.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberI think it was Meatloaf who said "I want my money back"
Posted 11 months ago # -
Captain Jack
MemberThat same thing has confused me also. When I fill out forms asking me what my race is I kind of stumble a bit. For I'm part Welsh, Indian, German, Polish. There is no box to check for Mulligan Stew.
I think it is important that Obama is identified as an African American for it says something to society of the world that even an African American can become president of the United States. I see this also brings some closure of racism in the US. No more speeches on how the black man is suppressed.
Now I see Caucasian males is the new minority when it comes to special programs. When I went to search for funding for a business I wanted to start many years ago, I was exempt from many of them. The running joke became that if I was a black, pregnant, female I could get thousands for just about any venture. I found these programs themselves being racist.
Posted 11 months ago # -
BillyB
MemberAs a Canadian, having a former prime minister that colour or race had nothing to do with defining, "Jean Chrétien" was defined, for us in the west at least, by language. He was the "French" leader, although fluently bi-ligual, he spoke with a french accent.
Having said that & not having gone to college, or studied grammer...etc. I was wondering if secular education or accreditted universities & such ever touch on the subject of "One origional language" as in the biblical account of the tower of babel. I don't want to get this discusion off topic, just wondering?Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberPerhaps prez elect Obama wants to test the waters out first before he goes and declares any sort of title of ethnicity since he has yet to be officially sworn into the office of presidency. When he straightens out the economy then those proud Americans will then feel honoured to shout out "Obama, first African American president!"
Posted 11 months ago # -
BillyB
MemberOh I see Jack was just here, In Canada, caucasion males run into similar roadblocks to funding as well (no complaints outa me though).
Out west we have a large populations of oriental, indian & pakistani, with diverse cultures embeded into the society. We had an indo-canadian premier "Ujjal Dosanjh" & I never thought it strange, or ground breaking, in any way. He is now involved in federal politics, I know of none of my aquaintences that think he made decisions on a racial basis, though he did get a very large portion of the indo-BC population supporting him... I didn't agree with his policies, but he is a well respected & seemingly honourable man.
All that being said, racism is not a non-issue up here, it just plays out a bit differently.Posted 11 months ago # -
Warren
MemberHello Buzzword- good idea. I'll take a shot at this.
I notice that many people ( including myself ) use colloquialisms
that to an experienced ear "pegs" the user to a geographical location and time.
Sometimes it seems that people use these to include or exclude themselves
to/from certain areas and people. Cliches have the same use as well.
Looks also play a part since people "look" a certain way -stupid to distinguished,
savage or civilized. Word usage in an everyday sort of banter does not define the
person completely. Thoughts run deeper than that. A student in a classroom may spout
off what they believe is a correct answer and later after contemplation realizes their mistake.
Language is a tool that can be used with clumsiness or with epertise.
Some words also insinuate action while inflection can be very useful to the subtle artist.
Words say many things though the words used might not state the implication.
Language usage seems to be evolving- to me it seems- again with the addition
of "texting" so that another subculture has come into being.
Words are being spelled differently and understood at this time but what about those same words ten years from now? They would not have been understood ten years ago.
I think I might be rambling so I'm stopping and getting out of my studio apt. now.
Have a great day.Posted 11 months ago # -
PageDoll
MemberI'm a Caucasian/Spanish/German/British/mexican/American...No wait, that sounds rediculous! I'm an American, thats it.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Captain Jack
MemberI heard from my Black friend that they said when visiting Canada they were treated much better than here in the US. One of my friends moved to Toronto because if this fact. I think this is because in the US we live in this state of fear of everything. I think its brought on from the way we sterilize our environment. We Americans are obsessed with sheltering in their everyday environment. I lived in a very sheltered child hood after the age of 9. Part of this reasoning was my sister and I where kidnapped at gun point and the psychologists suggested a low stress environment. My step mother took it a bit too far. I was in fear of just about everything. Today I'm now a completely different person. Today I see this contrast of fear that takes over people that have somewhat a sheltered lifestyle.
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Member@marina i would argue that the word, "caucasian" or "white" based on the collective behavior of u.s. society describes an individual of european american ethnicity alone. if one is bi-racial, consisting of caucasian or white the presence of any other ethnicity other than european excludes one from being identified as caucasian or white. this seems to be true of any bi-racial combinations, one with an asian and caucasian background would generally be considered asian, and so on. it is useful to consider the golfer, tiger woods as an example. tiger woods has an asian and african american background. u.s. society considers him to be black or african american. tiger woods has stated that he does not identify with one or the other. i recall a conversation in which an african american responded, "it doesn't matter what he thinks, its what the rest of us think." does this imply a type of ethnic gradient that sorts bi-racial individuals into a singular ethnicities? words and their meanings allow for the categorization of things into groupings. these categorizations reveal much about the often unrealized characteristics of a culture. in this case i think that these categories of ethnicity reveal much about the history of race in contemporary u.s. culture.
a parting thought, in african american vernacular the word, "passing" is often used to describe someone who is african american, that because of predominately european physical characteristics can "pass" for white. "to pass", consider this phrase and its implications. from this single phrase what can be said about the hierarchy of race in u.s. society? is their a comparable word used by caucasians, why?
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Memberp.c. or politically correct means: Showing an effort to make broad social and political changes to redress injustices caused by prejudice. It often involves changing or avoiding language that might offend anyone, especially with respect to gender, race, or ethnic background. For example, Editors of major papers have sent out numerous directives concerning politically correct language. This expression was born in the late 1900s, and excesses in trying to conform to its philosophy gave rise to humorous parodies.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer.
Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Cite This Sourceare there words that have similar meanings to the phrase, "politically correct" if so, can they be divided into groups of positive and negative values? such as, "respect" vs. "pander"
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Member@billyb i can only speak of my academic experience, i studied anthropology, which included some linguistics. the development of languages over time, the relationships of various languages, including reconstructing ancient languages are routinely researched and taught in the university setting. within linguistics the biblical account of the tower of babel is not usually discussed as a realistic theory explaining the origin of the various languages for a number of reasons. at this point most evidence does not support the tower of babel story as explaining the variety of languages in the world today. however i do recall discussing it as a mythic story along with other stories from a variety of cultures explaining the diversity of languages. if you search online there are many sources that accept the legitimacy of the tower of babel as the origin of languages and provide support for their argument.
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Memberbillyb brought up the tower of babel and the way that languages can divide a people such as in canada. both subjects nicely complimenting each other. english as an official language is a controversial subject in the u.s. what are some of the risks of a society functioning with a variety of languages operating? would bilingual communities be tolerated or is it necessary for all communities to abandon their native languages and use english alone? are there any historical u.s. examples that are applicable?
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Member@warren brings up a good point in his comment. how many different ways of speaking do you use? what factors influence your choice of words and speaking style? how did you learn which language was appropriate for any given situation?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberThose mentos fresh mint commercials always help to unite people
Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
Member"do... do,do,..do,do,..do,do,..do!wah!"
Posted 11 months ago # -
Captain Jack
Member@buzzword. I know these questions are directed to Warren, but I wanted to comment on them too.
How many different ways of speaking do you use? what factors influence your choice of words and speaking style? how did you learn which language was appropriate for any given situation?
When I speak to people in person I try to quickly adapt to their way of speaking. When I worked in large retail stores on the sales floor I had to switch styles rapidly to I could create a rapore (damn thats not the correct spelling but too tired to correct it)with the customer. I don't change my an accent, but I use different words to fit the people I talk to. Farmers talk differently than a City guy. Also I adjust for age. Senior vs teenager speak.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Me Lika Do The Cha Cha
MemberIs this where we have the discussion about what "gay" means? I mean, if a guy doesn't know the difference between a shithole and a fuckhole, isn't that "gay"?
Sorry - sorry... My point is that semantics are a problem, whether it's race or whatever.
"Blacks" in England do not like to be called that. This is PC in America. In England, they will proudly tell you they are African. The media in America sent us down this road of labeling everyone's ethnicity and did a really bad job - since it is all still discrimination. "White" people are categorized wrong, too. I'm Scottish-French-English-German-Irish by the bits in my DNA sequences, but I am categorized as a "white" caucasian. WTF! My family did not come from Caucasia!Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberIf a guy doesn't know the difference between bunghole and bungle turn up the speaker system and crank up the volume: "Houston...we have a problem...."
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Member@captainjack. so, one of your responsibilities was to accommodate the customer. (accommodate
1531, from L. accomodatus "suitable," pp. of accomodare "fit one thing to another," from ad- "to" + commodare "make fit," from commodus "fit" (see commode). Accommodation "lodgings and entertainment" first recorded 1604.) i think your must have made a very good salesperson to be this responsive to customers. recalling your experiences, have you ever observed anyone failing to accommodate a customer due to language? if so, could you describe the situation.Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Memberwhen i respond to a specific post, i note the individual's nick to make it easier for them to locate my reply. however my posts are submissions to a public dialogue and i encourage anyone to respond to my comments and questions.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberThe customer is always right all of the time so someone please inform the Most Popular category that pleasing most of the customers most of the time is not pleasing all of the customers all of the time even if popular opinion polls seem to suggest otherwise. Does that make any sense
Posted 11 months ago # -
buzzword
Member@melikadothechacha. you have brought up a very good point. and your right to note the uselessness of the term "caucasian" it is actually a word that anthropologists have abandoned. thank you for correcting me. i don't bother trying to be p.c. but i do try to be respectful. luckily unlike public figures most of us meet one on one. this provides the opportunity to establish a relationship based on mutual respect and acceptance. i meet people from many different cultures and have of course insulted some. however, i make it clear that i do not intend disrespect and that if informed, i will make effort to address them as they prefer. usually they extend the same goodwill. there are always exceptions though. when addressing a larger audience i make every effort to understand before hand what the majority of people representing an ethnic group prefer to be referred to. this is just the statistics of respect, and so there will always be a portion of that population that find exception to the manner of address and take issue. again, this is when one's own personal character becomes important, if the matter was a result of ignorance and not intentional insult then this should make significant amends. lastly if one has the misfortune to meet someone who does not respond to your efforts with the same respect then do not make the mistake of assuming that the individual's behavior is representative of their entire ethnic group. for example i'm still friends with french-english-german-irish people in spite of you.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Captain Jack
Member@Buzzword,
Not really accommodate them, but I kind of blend in. I quickly size them up. From there I find out what their needs and wants are. Then I select 2 products in the range that fits many of their most important needs are. While doing all this Im sort of bonding with them. I try to learn a few things about them and see if there are any things we have in common. You would be surprised how many things people have in common. Im completely honest with my customers at the risk of being written up or fired from my job. I have yet been written up. I guess when you can bring in about a quarter of a million dollars in sales every year and a half, they see the value.
Im able to quickly bond with my customers that they become customers for life. In fact when I go work for another company my customers follow me. I had this little black book and give them updates from time to time. Oh and many times I would get invited for dinner or $$ off their products or services at the companies they work at.I find young inexperience sale people talk in a style that just doesn't work with the customers they are selling to. For example I seen sale people talk like they are from the streets to ALL types of customers. You don't speak to Seniors the same way to talk to High school teens. If I sense they don't understand what Im talking about I try to speak in words that they are familiar with. For example Boom Box vs Portable music system or Wide screen Tv vs Digital Light Projection. Humm Im finding this kind of hard to explain on this forum. You would have to watch me work to get the complete picture. To really sum it up a sale can be made or lost depending on the words you choose to use. There is sometime a lot of pressure to come up with the correct words. Imagine you work for Cessna and your selling a Cessna citation (Private Jet) to a customer. He will buy a jet but he really is thinking about a Lear Jet. You work strictly on commission basis and you only get a lead once every 3 or 6 months. What you say in 15 minutes could make or break that sale. Now what do you say. You have 10 seconds to formulate your approach and start talking. What would you say? You now have 8 seconds. You see picking the right words can let you live like a movie star or a beach bum. Sales can be very stressful and you can't show it. That's why I got out. It can eat your heath away.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Me Lika Do The Cha Cha
Member@Buzzword - Thanks for the input, your remarks gave me a sense that you thought I was addressing your comments, only; when my response was to a compendium of comments spread throughout the thread. Your quick alliteration suggests some insult was drawn from my first premise. Knowing your audience is integral to effective speaking. Was it the shithole part or the fuckhole part that you found disrespectful? You freely use some of these words disrespectful of your audience, yet only aspire me to believe that it is I, alone who is being disrespectful for using these words. I wonder how you can be so critical of my "behaviour" and not realize any parallel to your own? Perhaps if you had understood some of the other premises regarding the negative use of labeling, abeit ethnic, racial, or other. Labels like nOOb, for instance. Clearly this is not intended to be respectful, is it? Your focus of attention on my comments was in a very narrow bandwidth far removed from the point of enlightenment I was making with my statements. Perhaps the semantic embedments in culture as a result of societal and media conditioning isn't apparent to you. I wouldn't have thought that likely, given the open acknowledgement of your own past cultural misunderstandings. From your use of profane words, I would think you should know when your intent was to be disrespectful, with no intention to convey goodwill, yet you have just stated the opposite is true. And, yes, we remain friends in spite of all of this harmless discussion, don't we?
Posted 11 months ago # -
bsomebody
MemberThe idea of race is very tricky. In the US, legislation had been adopted in the past. Most of this was on the state level. Generally, if someone was 1/4 or 1/8 black, then they were considered black. Australia used similar distinction with the Aborigine (Movie: "The Rabbit Proof Fence" is spectacular and horrible). Different cultures have different criteria. Historically, a person is a Jew if the mother is a Jew. The list goes on, changing among culture and time.
I have spent quite a bit of time studying racism in the US. We see changes coincide with other changes in economics, religion, political power, etc. My own belief is that race is merely an arbitrary factor that we can use to either group someone with us or against us, depending upon our desires at the time. We do the same thing with many other "traits." The five building blocks of ethnicity: 1) religion, 2) language, 3) common history, 4) geography, and 5) biology (race.) All of these are arbitrary, and we see them manipulated in order to define "them" or "us" depending on our goals.
Posted 11 months ago #
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