@everybody- Speaking of cultural diversity has brought a memory up that happened many years ago while at work. I was talking to my manager and coworker in a very casual manner since we were friends as well as employees at the same company. My manager asked my coworker if she would ever date anybody outside of her ethnic background (she was in the United States for about 4 years at the time). She looked shocked, not at the question being a personal one, because she had never considered the idea. I knew that she wouldn’t (I knew that she was a traditional woman). My manager was shocked at what he thought of as a prejudiced outlook on her part. I thought nothing of it because I have seen the same point of view from many others from varying ethnic backgrounds ( I don’t like to use the word “Race” to describe people and “Nationality” doesn’t seem accurate anymore).
So I am here asking anybody to help me analyze this exchange. There are three points of view here and I think that Buzzwords thread is the perfect place for these questions.
Was my point of view an apathetic one?
Was the point of view that the woman took racist?
Was my manager’s point of view a naïve one or a standard that all should try to emulate?
Does it seem that we needed diversification counseling?
I’ve always thought of this and I have yet to understand it in a way that I could explain it in a logical way. So I would appreciate any help so that I might make sense of this. I also wonder if anyone else has had similar situations.
HotForWords Forums » Philology and Etymology
language and culture
(118 posts)-
Warren
MemberPosted 1 year ago # -
bsomebody
Member1) Apathetic? I do not know your reasoning for "thiniking nothing of it." Could it be that race was such a non-issue for you? Was race such a big issue for you? Perhaps it was not apathy, but just not a concern that you found necessary. Only you know your reasoning, but that does lead me to another of my soap boxes. We should constantly re-examine our core ideas. Do we believe a certain way for any particular reason or has this core belief simply become socialized into our thought process. In the classroom, I will often play a game that I call "the annoying child." When a student states a core belief, I ask "Why?" I continue to ask the question until the student has formulated a response that initiates with his or her own thoughts. Acceptance of our own beliefs without understanding why may often appear as apathy, but it is a process that we can short-circuit when we re-evaluate our core beliefs openly.
2) Was her view racist? Again, the reasoning is at the heart of the question. Perhaps she felt the need to only marry within her religion. Did she have opportunity to meet people from other ethnic backgrounds? Remembering that ethniciity has five building blocks (history, religion, language, geography, and biology or race) we see that race is only one of these factors. She could have had a practical reason for seeking a spouse within her ethnicity, or it is possible that the thought had never occurred to her. Again, I would suggest that she evaluate her own feelings and identify why she felt that way. Do her ideas of other ethnic groups contain thoughts of inferiority or superiority? Is language a barrier? Does she have specific historical background that she needs her spouse to share?
The difficulty with asking many of these questions, is that we often do not even see the question. Will a fish ever ask what it is like to be wet? Probably not, because the fish has only known water. The fish must first spend some time with the otter or the frog. We must expand our horizons in order to grow. We often do not even see the question, ourselves.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Captain Jack
Moderator@neuroway
I've taken a quick look at Interlingua vs Esperanto on Wiki. I think Interlingua would be faster to learn for it's has some recognizable words. Yet Esperanto appears to be easier to form words.I fear no matter how perfect the language could be, we would never see it's use for people hate change. For example the Dvorak keyboard layout never caught on to replace the Qwerty keyboard. Even thought Dvorak layout is easier to learn and is faster to type on. Qwerty was designed to slow the typist down.
__/)______
Posted 1 year ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberI don't hate change but I sure do like large denomination$ a lot
Posted 1 year ago # -
neuroway
MemberHey hey hey Capt'n!
You gotta point here. Interlingua seems easier to learn. To be honest, I don't know anything about it and I had never heard of it before (or perhaps I did hear in the past and didn't pay attention). Thanks for finding out about this one. Personally I prefer Esperanto, mainly because of its fancy accents (makes it look much more classy) and also because it's already widespread in the world today. You'll find Esperantists in pretty much every city of the world, however I am not sure Interlingua enjoys as much popularity as Esperanto. I have not learned Esperanto yet. I am still in the process of convincing myself to go forward with it.
Some of my friends are quite fluent and at ease with it, and they told me how a small affair it is to master that language.
Cheers,
Posted 1 year ago # -
Warren
MemberAfter rereading what I had written I see that I added another question after I said that there were only three of them (oops).
@bsomebody, Thank you for your analysis of this scenario it is an excellent one and I appreciate your contribution. I have often thought of this and reading your comment has confirmed my ideas in regards to the way it was handled by the three of us at that time. I brought this up since I believe that many people deal with this same situation throughout their lives and I just wanted another perspective to help confirm my point of view. You are very insightful and have explained it perfectly. Historical background, language, religious beliefs and the perspective that is formed by living that specific lifestyle is not easy to explain to one that has not shared the same ways of life. I don’t believe that she was being racist and you understand her reasoning since it was everything that you detailed without the thoughts of superiority. My manager’s point of view I thought was an excellent one though not really practical for all situations as you also explained with the “5 building blocks”. I don’t think that I was apathetic since understanding and accepting people and their cultural beliefs is important to me (those that do not harm people). Thank you.Posted 1 year ago # -
buzzword
Member@warren i doubt you were being apathetic. as you explained, "i knew she was a traditional woman." you had an existing understanding that had prepared you for her statement and so it conveyed less impact.
it would be difficult to know what has determined her preferences for a partner. "racist" is a belief that all members of a race possess a characteristic that is determined to be superior or inferior. other words associated with "racist" are "prejudice" and "discriminate". "prejudiced" is a preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience. "discriminate" can mean making a distinction or in this situation a possible unjust or prejudicial distinction. is her preference based on a belief that all other races are inferior. is this an irrational decision based upon incomplete or faulty reason? what type of discrimination is being made?
without knowing the answers to these questions your manager may have been guilty of making a prejudiced statement.
i don't think anyone needs diversity counseling, perhaps some patience, compassion and understanding. the fact that you are continue to analyze this situation conveys to me that you already have these qualities.
i recently had this same conversation with a friend. he was attracted to a girl from india and she would not date anyone outside of her ethnic group. this hurt him and he decided that she was being racist and discriminating. i asked him if she was basing her preference on the belief that her ethnic group was superior to others? later after gaining these answers he said that she was basing it upon numerous factors none of them involving superiority. however she did feel that someone from her own ethnic group would be better suited to compliment her identity and participate in the customs and beliefs of her culture. satisfying her cultures expectations was as important as fulfilling her own. communal obligation is common to some ethnicities and conflicts with dominate u.s. culture in which individualism is valued. it seemed she was discriminating but based upon some reasonable considerations that were not intrinsically racist. so, i reasoned that she was not racist or prejudiced.
i attempted to facilitate this understanding in my friend by posing the question, "would you date a racist, homosexual, satanist, senior citizen, man. he said, "no." i then asked him, "are you racist, prejudiced and are you discriminating?" you probably can guess his answer. his answer was based upon the same basic reasons anyone appropriately discriminates between people to select potential partners.
race has played a significant role in u.s. culture and history. as such any circumstance that involves race or ethnicity is sure to involve earnest dialogues. your managers response may have been motivated by a hyper vigilance against racism that reflects the degree that race is still an issue in the u.s. in such conversations it is best to be reasoned and sensitive.
Posted 1 year ago # -
buzzword
Member -
Warren
Member@Buzzword, Welcome back from your studies. Your perspective and bsomebody's (bsomebodies ..?..)were well put and thank you for the compliment.
Posted 1 year ago # -
BillyB
MemberLanguage, written & oral as a form of communication, is one tool used by creatures to convey from one soul to another the thoughts & intents of the "heart" (some cultures use "bowels"), otherwise known as the seat of ones emotions. As cptn. Jack has said, english is very frustrating indeed, as a medium to convey, with much depth, the thoughts one has to express.
I'm surprised that "Music" was not brought up as a subject of conversation... fascinating, wonderful, emotionally moving, magic, mysterious... but a few words to describe music & yet "it", like language, it's diverse, beyond description, fluid... generationaly & culturally divisive & yet used to unite, excite, & express without the neccecity of knowing exactly the intent of the expression or expressor. See how hard it is to describe.
I was told as a kid, that "Rock & Roll is of the devil" I don't want to argue that point exactly, but it has been brought up that people tend to fear things that take them out of their personal comfort zone. If one were to want to talk about the devil. I'll bring up a little of what I believe about his musical ability, he has none. 'nuff said.
Understanding, or should I say, learning to appreciate the music of cultures has broadened my views & helped me understand humanity, deepening my faith whilst causing me to have questions faster than I find answers.
I find myself jealous of people gifted with natural musical abilities, but because of a trained musical background, possesing the precious ability to appreciate the gift in others.
I noted today while listening to the music of the inauguration of Barrack Obama, the John Williams piece (specially compossed for the occasion) was loosely based on an Old Christian "Hallelujah" Hymn, that I recognized, believe it or not , from a Mr. Bean skit.
Am I "out to lunch" here... don't doubt that I may be. Appreciated reading some (most, even all) of the thoughts expressed by the contributors here & only wish to be as coherent. Thanks for the chance to practice & participate, its late & I'm out.Posted 1 year ago # -
Warren
Member@BillyB, Great point. I'm sure there will be further conversations regarding this.
Posted 1 year ago # -
bsomebody
MemberI definately agree about the importance of music. I often use music in history classrooms to get students minds a little freer. Students seem to be much more willing to interpret or analyze a poem if the poem is accompanied by a guitar, bass, and drums. (Well, I do to, so I understand that.) That is a big part of the attraction of Rock 'n Roll to me: the attitude, the rebellion, the nonconformity.
Some musicians/composers are able to express these emotions without words. That is a true gift. I do not even begin to understand it, but I do appreciate it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
buzzword
Member@billyb music, art of the muses. music has been important to me as a means of understanding people, culture and history. there are lots of songs and genres that i fail to appreciate yet i attempt to understand their role to the individual and society. i wonder if anyone can provide examples of music that communicated meaning and emotion in a way that made an impact on you. perhaps a piece that allowed you to understand someone better, introduced you to a new culture or era. additionally one could provide an example of music that one doesn't particularly prefer yet realizes the use it has for the people that perform and listen to it. even a piece or genre that just annoys or perplexes you. it would be helpful if the example was linked to a performance and written lyrics if they are used. i'd go first but if i start listening to music i won't get any studying done!
Posted 1 year ago # -
buzzword
Memberalright here's my submission. john lee hooker who is the first blues performer i listened to, i was immediately moved. (this example is not the first performance i encountered) there are lots of musical elements represented here of the blue's tradition that i won't go into to. although i will mention that it's almost a duet between him and his guitar, a form of call and response which is a common element in early african american music. but most importantly the words... the song is a form of story telling about passion, love, failure, futility, desperation, pain, guilt. the women he sees reminds him of a previous lover, this ultimately results in pain, failure, isolation and he believes he deserves this pain because he is unwilling to live in the present and chooses the past and loneliness instead.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Evan Owen
MemberHello Buzzword,
To get back to one of your opening questions from a month ago:
Have cultures used language to order and maintain ethnic or national identity?
I volunteered for about 10 years for the Welsh language movement, and saw a lot that pertained to your question. England conquered Wales over 700 years ago, and has tried persistently in the intervening time to turn the Welsh into English. With little else to use as a basis for national identity -- England dominated them politically, economically, and militarily -- the Welsh clung to their language, and the literary traditions rooted in it, as a badge of national identity. Without it, they would probably have become provincial, rural British, a backwater like Cornwall with a dim memory of having been something distinct.So in answer to your question -- do, mae'r iaith yn rhan hunaniaith cenedlaethol!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Captain Jack
ModeratorWhat I find interesting about music is it's ability of bringing out more emotions than the written word. I ponder why this is so. If you look all over the net you will find more references towards music than great speeches. We don't use our iPods to listen to speeches but to music. I wonder if Obama had given the inauguration speech more as to lyric of a song would have people taken it to heart more? Would they have downloaded to their iPods? This is to say he was good at making music.
People listen to songs repetitively. Speeches you normally only hear once. I asked the question would it be better to give a speech using music?___/)____
Posted 1 year ago # -
BillyB
Memberhttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99838355 Analyzing Obama's Speech And Cadence. Thanks to Buzzword for the link.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Greatest Potential
Member@CaptainJack
If the great classical composers were alive today and someone handed out each of them an ipod the majority of those composers would probably toss their ipods into the river and play electric moog instead.Not to bash ipod technology, rather, pose a question to the frequency
Speaking of questions, you pose a lot of interesting questions in your post CJ. If you listen to an historic speech you may listen to a speech once for the sake of the moment and then that's it. If you write and give speeches of your own you are going to listen to speeches over and over again.
A well written speech if presented with flair will hold it's power on it's own and not have to rely on music in order to embelish a tone to the preceedings. If the speech takes place outside and it's cold weather a piano for instance won't hold in tune for long. A pre-recorded tape of the orchestra is played through a loud speaker and the musicians play along and do their best not to appear "Milli Vanillish"
Posted 1 year ago # -
bsomebody
MemberOne thing about music that is a little quircky is how so many people believe a song means something totally different than what it does. I know that lots of music is artistic and open to a plethora of interpretations, but some music is making a definite statement, such as Edwin Starr's WAR. I remember a Chevy truck commercial: the truck is sloshing through the mud, American flag flying in the bed, and Creedence singing "Some people were born to wave the flag." Out of the whole song, that is probably the only line they could use. Another song that is ... uh, ironic maybe. I dunno, but people play Born in the USA and they obviously do not know what the song means. I am not sure why this is relevant, or if I am simply annoyed with ignorance in general.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Evan Owen
MemberChanging the topic from music, but in keeping with Buzzword's opening questions about language and cultural identity:
I've pissed off a couple of Russian students on the HFW site by replying to comments they wrote in Russian. Their reaction (threats of bodily injury or death) seemed out of proportion to what I had said, until my ex-wife explained it as follows:
Russians are protective of their women, after centuries of defending the Motherland from Mongols, Teutonic Knights, Tatars, Napoleonic French, Nazis, and other riffraff. The Russian students on these pages see Marina as one of their own, and express this connection by writing to her in Russian. So if I reply to a comment written in Russian, I am trespassing on a sacred and mystical link between the writer, Marina, and the Motherland. This trespass triggers a reflexively hostile reaction that echoes the centuries of Russian battles against invading foreigners.
On the other hand, maybe they just want to clobber me for being a jerk, same as everyone else does.
So do either of these explanations make sense to anyone else?
Posted 1 year ago # -
bsomebody
MemberAs I stated earlier, you being a jerk has absolutely nothing to do with why I want to clobber you.
But, seriously folks. Are you sure your Russian is correct? Is it possible that you may have inadvertantly said something demeaning or insulting to our Lady? Perhaps a small error in diction has completely changed your message. It is extremely common to loose something in translation. Many times, even misplaced punctuation can completely reverse the intended message. I dunno, just throwing a suggestion. Perhaps, Chemikal or Lady M know something in particular. Perhaps, you could throw a generic question out on the main page, asking in Russian what your unintended offense may have been. I have high hopes that your goodwill will prevail.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Warren
Member@Buzzword & BillyB,
As for the question regarding how music has communicated a meaning and emotion in a way that has impacted me- well there are too many references that I could name. Music and art have been a part of my life since I was very young. I used to enjoy sketching everything on any clean piece of paper that I could find and I used to play the trumpet for a few years.
But to change the direction here a bit I remember years ago reading that there were stones found in Africa that had grooves/divots in them.
I don’t exactly remember what the discussion was about but the gist of it was that these rocks were believed to be used as communication instruments and/or musical instruments.
This really spun my mind as I pictured ancient people playing "heavy rock”.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Greatest Potential
MemberGrooving and getting down to the music and "Hey, that's really groovy!" are not just some past forgotten hippie terms because the groove is still where it's at. Vinyl records with multigrooves to play different material, depends on where the stylus is cued. An example of a multi-grooved record would be the "three-sided" Matching Tie and Handkerchief album by Monty Python. Both sides of the album were labelled "Side 2" (one side plays normal) Turn the record over and the other side had a double grooved track. However, later pressings of the same recorrding did not include the double grooved track, thus making the first pressing of this recording a find for the record collecter.
Then there's the Voyager Golden Record (comes with playing instrucions) thank goodness NASA has a sense of humour, huh? Launch a human artifact out into outer space and who knows? perhaps an extraterrestial lifeform finds it and contact is made.
Posted 1 year ago # -
bsomebody
MemberThis may not really fit in this forum, but I thought you lads may want to take a gander at this. I am a little surpised that this happened. German bishops say 'no room' for Holocaust denier in Catholicism
Posted 1 year ago # -
that what happened?
that he denied the holocaust or that there is no room for it in catholicism?Posted 1 year ago # -
Warren
MemberThis is interesting. I was on Twitter and this was posted there.
Why we need a tribe.Posted 1 year ago # -
bsomebody
Member@ alex, I was surprised that a Catholic priest would deny the Holocaust. I know that somehow, some well-educated people still deny, but I had thought (hoped, probably) that a priest would be more open to a well-documented historical event. The Catholic Church has recently made several comments concerning their regretable behavior during WWII. Pope John Paul actually made a formal apology; he caught hell for it, but this guy had a serious set on him. Perhaps I should not have been too surprised, but I really did not expect that.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Captain Jack
Moderator@Warren, Yeah that was interesting. I was looking all over to find out who gave me that link and it was you. I can't seem to find your twitters.
So I have been putting some thought into tribes. I have not seen enough to convinced me that it works. I heard a lot of flack about his books so I'm not sure.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Warren
MemberI believe this belong here:
Once I was a scuba diver in a sea of words.
Why isn't this working?
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2008/07/this-is-your-brain-this-is-your-brain-on-the-internetthe-nick-carr-thesis/OK, it worked.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Greatest Potential
Member@Warren
Do you ever read Ray Bradbury? We do need a tribe
Posted 1 year ago #
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